Mir Hossein Mousavi
ی از مسئولین می گوید مسئله کهریزک بی خود بزرگ
شده است. نمونه بارز دیگر این روزها نحوه ارتباط قوه قضاییه با باصطلاح
ضابطین خودش است. باید دید قاضی ها فرمان می دهند و تصمیمی می گیرند یا
نیروهای انتظامی و امنیتی؟ قوه قضاییه ای که در قانون اساسی به صورتی قوی
بر استقلال آن تأکید شده است امروز باید دید که اختیاراتش تا چه حد است؟
تا چه مقدار شأن و منزلت آن مراعات می شود؟ به نظر من یکی از مظاهر بارز
ادامه روحیه استبدادی را در مظلوم واقع شدن قوه قضاییه و مجلس می توان
مشاهده کرد. آیا امروز قوه قضاییه و قوه مقننه می توانند از همه اختیاراتی
که قانون اساسی برای آنها تعیین کرده است، استفاده کنند. مشابهتی که
انتخابات ها هم با انتخابات آن دوره پیدا می کند یکی دیگر از این نشانه ها
است. شما شیوه رای گیری مجالس اول انقلاب را با الان مقایسه کنید تا
ببینید ما به جلو حرکت کرده ایم یا به گذشته؟
از مطالبات همیشگی جامعه که در شعارهای تشکل های سیاسی بازتاب داشته است عدالت اجتماعی، بویژه عدالت اقتصادی بوده است. گاهی دیده شده است که آزادی و عدالت در مقابل هم قرار داده شده اند. میتوان گرایش خاصی را در جنبش سبز تشخیص داد….ا
مردم در مشروطیت عدالت می خواستند و از دل عدالت، خواست آزادی هم متولد شد تا آنجا که تاریخ اندیشه بشری نشان می دهد خواست عدالت همیشه مطرح بوده است حتی بعضی از حکما و اندیشمندان عدالت را جمع همه فضیلت ها و یا مادر همه فضیلت های دیگر دانسته اند. من گمان نمی کنم که ما مجبور باشیم میان عدالت و آزادی یکی از آنها را انتخاب کنیم. بطور عینی و ملموس شما توجه کنید که خط فقر هشتصد و پنجاه هزار تومانی و وجود توأمان تورم و بیکاری، دارند درخواست آزادی را محدود می کنند.
درست در همین نقطه است که طمع سیطره و مهار خواستهای آزادی خواهانه مردم بروز و ظهور پیدا می کند. در کوچکتر شدن سفره مردم است که توزیع سیب زمینی و اقتصاد صدقه ای برای جلب آرا و خواسته های مردم مورد توجه قرار می گیرد. بررسی وضعیت موجود کشور نشان می دهد که امروز گره خوردن خواست برای عدالت بویژه عدالت اقتصادی با خواست برای آزادی سیاسی یک ضرورت است.ا
در سالهای قبل از انقلاب، دفاع نیروهای انقلابی و جامعه دانشگاهی از اقشار ضعیف یک اصل بود و متصف بودن به همنشینی باکارگران و حقوق بگیران و اقشار مستضعف یک افتخار بحساب می آمد. به نظر بنده از نکاتی که همه ما باید به ان توجه کنیم حمایت از منافع اقشار زحمت کش است، البته نه برای آنکه از این اقشار به صورت ابزاری استفاده شود بلکه با این قصد که سرنوشت جنبش با سرنوشت همه آحاد ملت بویژه دو قشری که تولید اقتصادی و تولید علمی دارند یعنی کارگران و معلمان ودانشگاهیان گره بخورد. بنده به دلیل آنکه مشکلات حاد سیاسی باعث شده است مشکلات اقشار پایین دست جامعه و حقوق آنان کمتر مورد توجه قرار گیرد، ناراحت هستم. وقتی معیشت مردم سامان پیدا می کند، هم ریشه های آزادی در جامعه عمیق تر می شود و هم وحدت و رشد و شکوفایی مردم بیشتر می شود.ا
امروز کسانی که مسئول شور بختی مردم و عقب ماندگی ملی ما هستند و کسانی که مسئول تورم و بیکاری و ویرانی اقتصاد کشور هستند، مسئول تعطیلی پروژه های بزرگ و عقب ماندگی ما از رقیبان در منطقه هستند، با تزریق مسکّن ها و سیاست های بی سر و ته ولی عوام فریبانه سعی می کننداز این وضعیت استفاده کنند. کافی است ببینید باسهام عدالت و حقوق بازنشستگان و شیوه غلط اجرای اصل ۴۴ چه بلایی به سر مملکت آورده اند. سرنوشت برنامه چهارم و بودجه سال آینده مایه نگرانی جدی است.ا
مخصوصا با ندانم کاری هایی که منجر به افزایش خطر تحریم ها شده است. به هر حال باید گفت که اقشار مستضعف جامعه که دل در ارزش های اسلامی دارند بالقوه خواستار تحقق اهدافی هستند که جنبش سبز نیز بدنبال آن است. کسانی که خواستار اجماع ملی برای تغییراند باید بیشتر با اقشار تهی دست گره بخورند و از منافع آنها دفاع بکنند گذشته از آن، امروز به دلیل سرنوشت ساز بودن تصمیمات و سیاست های اقتصادی همه باید به اخبار و تحلیل های اقتصادی حساسیت نشان بدهند. این روزها حجم اخبار اقتصادی و اجتماعی درمقایسه با اخبار سیاسی بسیار اندک است و در این زمینه اطلاع رسانی کمی صورت می گیرد.ا
عده ای عبور از قانون اساسی را حلال مشکلات کشور می بینند. آیا به نظر شما این راه حل واقعی مسائل ماست؟
انشاالله همه ما برای اصلاح به میدان آمده ایم، نه برای انتقام گیری و یا کسب قدرت و یا ویران گری. راه حل های گذر از قانون اساسی دارای اشکالات فراوان و جدی است. اولین آنها عدم توانایی صاحبان چنین خواسته ای برای جلب نظر اکثریت ملت ماست. بدون جلب نظر این اکثریت و حتی باید بگویم، بدون ایجاد یک اجماع نباید منتظر یک تحول اساسی و معنا دار باشیم. برای همین بعضی از شعارهای معطوف به عبور از قانون اساسی موردسوء ظن مردم متدین ونهادهای سنتی است و متاسفانه باید گفت، گاهی شعارهای افراطی در این زمینه بیشتر از افراط کاری های اقتدارگرایان به جنبش آسیب می رسانند. اینکه شما مخالف خرافه گرایی و تحجر هستید یک خواست خوب و اساسی است.ا
ولی اینکه وسط معرکه بحث هایی به میان کشیده شود که با اعتقادات و دین و ایمان مردم ناسازگاری دارد، مشکوک است. دلیل بعدی برای ابتر بودن عبور از قانون اساسی آن است که با این راه حل، ما به پرتاب در تاریکی دعوت می شویم. اگر ما این ریسمان اتصال را که حاصل زحمات و تلاش های نسلهای گذشته ماست از دست بدهیم به قطعات ریز ریز بی خاصیت تبدیل خواهیم شد. طبیعی است که دنبال آن رویگردانی عامه مردم از این آشفتگی و حرکت در تاریکی را شاهد باشیم. کسانی که اهداف مبتنی برعبور از قانون اساسی را دنبال می کنند ممکن است امروز بلندگوهای بزرگی را در اختیار داشته باشند ولی در بطن جامعه اهداف آنها با سوءظن جدی روبرو است. مخصوصا که در کنار منادیان عبور از قانون اساسی خواسته و نخواسته آنها بعضی از چهره های منفور شاهی حضور دارند که به صورت فرصت طلبانه ای کینه خود را به مردم و انقلاب به نمایش می گذارند. کسانی که تئوریسین های شاهی را در برنامه های خود علم می کنند ظاهرا یادشان رفته است که مردم حافظه بسیار خوبی دارند. بهرحال هر کس به اندازه وزن اجتماعی خود میتواند انتظار مقبولیت را داشته باشد و نه بیشتر.ا
شعارهایی امروز مفید است که یا بصورت مشخص به تبیین اهداف جنبش کمک کند و یا همدلی عامه مردم را در کنار نخبگان و طبقات میانه جلب کند.همه باید بدانند که ۲۲ بهمن و انقلاب اسلامی را اکثریت قاطع مردم ما متعلق به صدها هزار شهید می دانند و تاریخ و منش ملت ما با زنجیره ای از این شهدا در شهر و روستا به دیروز انقلاب متصل اند.ا
هفت ماه برنامه کانال های کشورهای دیگر که متأسفانه به دلیل بستن فضای رسانه ای کشور و انحراف صدا و سیما اهمیت پیدا کرده اند، اثراتی داشته اند. ولی این اثرات ضعیف تر از آن هستند که مردم از منافع ملی خود و خواسته های دینی و تاریخی شان دست بردارن، همچنانکه نباید همچون حربه ای برای اتهام و سرکوب واقعیت های جامعه مورد بهره برداری قرار گیرند. به نظر من تلاش برای سوق دادن مردم بسوی شعارهای محدود و از پیش تعیین شده ،اهانت به مردم است و باید شعارها از بطن حرکت های مردمی و بصورت خود جوش و غیر آمرانه بجوشد. همانطور که در سال ۵۷ شعار استقلال، آزادی، جمهوری اسلامی به صورت طبیعی از دل مردم جوشید.ا
آیا صرف تکیه بر قانون اساسی راه را برای آینده نمی بندد؟
بنده جایی گفته ام که قانون اساسی وحی منزل نیست و همانطور که سال ۶۸ یکبار تغییر پیدا کرد می توان با توجه به نیازهای فکری مردم و مطالبات مردم و تجربیات ملی گام های مهمی در جهت کارآمدسازی بیشتر آن برداشت. منتهی باید بداینم که صرف داشتن یک قانون خوب مسئله را حل نمی کند. ما باید به طرف سازو کارهایی حرکت کنیم که امکان نقض و تخطی از قانون هزینه های گزافی برای نقض کنندگان آن در هر سطح و مرتبتی داشته باشد.ا
به نظر بنده جمهوری اسلامی منهای قانون اساسی بی معنا است، و ما علاوه بر مراقبت جهت عدم نقض قانون اساسی،اجرا نشدن و یا کمتر توجه کردن به بخشهایی از قانون اساسی را هم باید نوعی نقض قانون اساسی بحساب بیاوریم. برای همین، خواست اجرای بدون تنازل قانون اساسی یک خواست راهبردی است از طرف دیگر هم به همین دلیل باید به کسانی که علاقه مند به بقای جمهوری اسلامی هستند بگوییم اگر بخشهای قابل ملاحظه ای از قانون اساسی بویژه فصل سوم آن مورد بی اعتنایی قرار گیرد بطور قهری بدیل های دیگری برای نظام ظهور خواهد کرد. همه باید بدانیم، عدم رعایت حقوق اساسی مردم که در قانون اساسی آمده است و هم چنین به رسمیت نشناختن حاکمیت مردم بر سرنوشت خود به ابطال این میثاق ارزشمند ملی خواهد انجامید. به طور مثال آن کسانی که جاسوسی و تجسس را در جامعه تبدیل به یک رویه عادی کرده اند، خواسته و ناخواسته تیشه به ریشه نظام می زنند. آن کسانی که رسانه ها را محدود کرده اند و صدا و سیما را در انحصار خواسته های خود قرار داده اند، به سستی پایه های جمهوری اسلامی کمک می کنند.ا
در بیانیه شماره ۱۷ اشاره به نهرهایی داشتم که اگر وارد رودخانه گل آلود و طغیانی بشوند می توانند جریان آنرا بتدریج آرام و روشن گردانند. یکی از آن نهرهای روشن می تواند این باشد که رسما اعلام شود که قرار است همه به قانون اساسی برگردیم.ا
به عنوان سوال آخر در مورد راهپیمایی ها و تجمعات نظرتان را بیان بفرمایید
راهپیمایی و تجمعات مسالمت آمیز، حق مردم است، زنان و مردان و جوانان و میانسالان و سالخوردگان به نظر من مردم در اصل هیچ کینه ای نسبت به نیروهای انتظامی و بسیج ندارند چرا که آنها را نیز از خود می دانند. درگیری موقعی پیش می آید که این نیروها در مقابل حرکت آرام مردم قرار می گیرند از هزاران عکس و فیلم های کوتاه مردمی که درعاشورا و یا روزها ی دیگر گرفته شده می توان فیلم مستندی ساخت تا معلوم شود که درگیری ها و فضای تند دنبال آن چگونه ایجاد شده است. به هر حال انچه توصیه بنده به نیروهای انتظامی و بسیج است، مهربانی و ملاطفت با مردم است و توصیه من به طرفداران جنبش سبز آن است که تمایز خود را با بقیه مردم، چه کم و چه زیاد ،کم کنند. این نهضت از میان مردم برآمده و متعلق به مردم است. همه به شدت باید مراقب اعتقادات، مقدسات و عرف و هنجارهای جامعه باشند. اما هدف نهایی خودمان را درهیچ مرحله ای نباید از یاد ببریم و آن ساختن ایرانی پیشرفته و مستقل و آزاد و متحد است. این هدف تنها با همکاری همه زنان و مردان و همه اقشار ملت و همه اندیشه ها و سلیقه ها امکان پذیر است. جا دارد بگویم، وقتی می گوییم ایران باید همه ایرانیان داخل و خارج علاقمند به اعتلای این سرزمین و فرهنگ دیرینه و باورهای دینی، آسمانی و رحمانی آن را در نظر بیاوریم و انشاالله حرکت سبز در هیچ مرحله ای دست از روش های مسالمت آمیز و اخلاقی خود در مبارزه برای احقاق حق ملت دست برنخواهد داشت. این حرکت از انتخاب رنگ سبز رنگ اهل بیت پیامبر به عنوان اسلام رحمانی و دوستی و محبت و وحدت همیشه استفاده کرده است. جنبش سبز به کرامت ذاتی انسانی و حق تنوع عقاید و اندیشه و آزادی بیان احترام می گذارد و از همه جنبش هایی که اهداف آنها بهروزی و رشد ملت و تضمین حقوق شهروندی و آزادی های اساسی ملت ما و نیز عدالت اجتماعی است استقبال می کند و آنها را از خود جدا نمی داند.ا
آیا شما نماینده و سخن گویی در خارج دارید؟
در جنبش سبز هر شهروند یک رسانه است و راه سبز هیچ نماینده و سخن گویی در خارج ندارد. یکی از زیبایی های فضای سبز آن است که همه حرفهای خود را می زنند و این حرکت در یک فضای تعامل گسترش می یابد. بنده هم به عنوان یک همراه نظرات و پیشنهادات خودم را در این فضا مطرح می کنم.ا
گاهی در سایتها و فیس بوک و نظایر آن از شما نقل قولهایی می شود. تا چه اندازه این مطالب مورد تأیید شماست؟
مطالب بنده با امضاء و در سایتهای محدودی منعکس می شود و من وبلاگ شخصی و امثال آن ندارم. نقل قولهایی که اشاره کردید از جمله عوارض اجتناب ناپذیر فضای مجازی است و ارتباطی با من ندارد.ا
Kaleme reports that in this interview which took place close to February 11th [22 of Bahman], the 31st anniversary of the Islamic revolution, Mousavi stated that the main reason for the collapse of the dictatorial and unpopular regime of the Shah was its illegitimacy [in the eyes of citizens]. He emphasized that the resistance of Iranians is a cherished legacy of the Islamic revolution. As is their intolerance for dishonesty, fraud and corruption. The complete interview is provided below.
We are approaching the 31st anniversary of the Islamic revolution. How can the recollection and commemoration of those days benefit us today?
First and foremost, I want to congratulate all of our people on the 31st anniversary of our [victory in the] revolution, particularly the families of our martyrs, our [war] veterans and prisoners of war [with Iraq]. Analyzing the Islamic revolution has not come to an end yet. There have been thousands of books and articles written about it and many still to come. It is interesting that the recent elections and the events following it have brought forth new critiques of the revolution.
Some of these analyses mainly focus on the similarities between them, some explore the similarities as well as the differences and others seek the roots of the green movement in the Islamic revolution. In any case, these critiques are very beneficial, particularly for the younger generation who are the main moving force of the green movement. There were many factors that joined in bringing together our people, particularly the marginalized [people] , under the brilliant leadership of Imam Khomeini and leaded to the [victory of the] revolution. There is much to say about this, but what I think is particularly relevant to our current situation and would like to mention now, at the beginning of this interview, is that in the 1979 revolution, all of our people had united and were present in shaping the revolution. This unity was so strong that it even took over the military bases. The [famous] historic picture of the officers of the air force saluting Imam Khomeini on the 8th of February is important in documenting this. In the days leading to the revolution we didn’t have two groups, a majority and a minority, in the streets; but because the unpopular and dictatorial regime of the Shah had completely lost the roots of its legitimacy , it had no base left, even among the military forces. In those days even specific political groups with very distinct positions lost their differences and, some even reluctantly, joined the masses of millions in asking for “independence, liberty [freedom], Islamic Republic”.
Can we say that the fall of the Pahlavi regime was inevitable?
The regime had completely lost its legitimacy. Of course, the [regime’s forces] killing civilians on the streets had a lot to do with this. The murders of 17 Shahrivard [September 8th] were a defining moment. If we look back, we see that if the Pahlavi regime had not betrayed the achievements of the Constitutional Revolution [which saw the establishment of parliament], the monarchy would have survived and continued to rule with the role that the constitution had carved out for it, and with the backing of the people’s vote. From the beginning, many warnings were given to the Pahlavis regarding [their disregard for the constitution] and someone like the late Modarres sacrificed his life for this goal. But all these warnings and reminders were useless and within a few years of the constitutional revolution, despotic governance had taken over once more, although this time with a modern façade. The relatively long rule of the Pahlavis shows that during the Constitutional Revolution, the roots of despotism were not completely destroyed. And these roots continued to live on, within cultural, social and political structures. I remember that in those years, one picture which the Shah constantly used to promote himself was a photo of a farmer kissing the Shah’s feet. In his view, this demonstrated the deep love that the people had for him. But of course, wise men saw much more in that photo.
Would you say that the elements which – according to you – reinforce despotic regimes were eliminated with the Islamic Revolution?
In the first years of the revolution, people were convinced that it had completely destroyed all of those structures through which despotism and dictatorship could be reinforced. And I was one of the people who believed this. But today, I no longer do. Today we can identify those very structures which have lead to despotism [in the past]. We can also identify the resistance people have shown against a return to dictatorship. This is the invaluable inheritance of the Islamic Revolution, clearly demonstrated today with the people’s intolerance for deception, lies and corruption. Similarly, the tight control of newspapers and media, the overflowing prisons, and the brutal killing of innocent people who are peacefully requesting their rights all reveal the lingering roots of despotism. The people are after justice and freedom. Moreover, they are aware that the arrests and executions are politically motivated and unconstitutional. They despise the monarchy but are also aware that people may be condemned to death based on frivolous accusations and without even being subject to a legal trial. [The people know that these executions are only carried out] so that a brutal, ruthless leader of Friday prayers – one who has constantly defended corruption, violence and deception – can applaud them. It matters not to him that there are abundant [instances of] forced confessions, and he doesn’t care that [those executed] have had nothing to do with the election. For him, what matters is the power of the executions to generate fear. He is ignorant of the power of innocent blood. He doesn’t know that it was the blood of martyrs that caused the Pahlavi regime to collapse. From the revolution onwards, people have believed in freedom, independence and the Islamic Republic. The courageous resistance and the strength of our people and our soldiers during the eight year war was a sign of the fundamental changes that had taken place in our society. We should remember that parts of our country were lost in the wars, crises and political games created during the time of the shahs [kings].The courageous resistance of our people during the eight-year war ended this vicious cycle. And now, in the courageous, defiant and green rows of people who demand their rights, we see a continuum of the very resistance we saw during the war and the 1979 revolution. However, we can conclude that we were too optimistic at the beginning of the [Islamic] revolution. We can see today that the government, its newspapers and its national broadcasting network easily lie. Our people can see that in reality, the security and military forces control cases in the judiciary; that the judiciary itself has become an instrument of the security forces.
I believe that the martyrdom of men like Beheshti, Motahari and others during the Islamic Revolution was [a result of] the extended despotic roots of the previous regime that had not been destroyed completely. Therefore, I do not believe that the Islamic Revolution has achieved its goals. The Fajr festival held each year is, in reality, [a medium for people] to be vigilant and reinforce [their] strength in order to remove the remaining roots of despotism. Today, people are actively present on the scene to pursue justice, freedom and [the right] to rule their own destinies. We should remember that our nation has produced hundreds of thousands of martyrs in the pursuit of these goals.
The Islamic Revolution is the result of the efforts and sacrifices of our great nation. [Even] a slight ignorance and retreat will lead us to a darker dictatorship than [the one we had] before – because dictatorship in the name of religion is the worst kind.On the contrary, [the pursuit of ] knowledge as well as the primary goals of the Islamic Revolution – [which include] serious demands for freedom and justice – will carry us from a dark past to a bright future. This will destroy the remaining residues of dictatorship and pave the way for life in a free [society] where diversity, pluralism, freedom of speech and human dignity are all respected. I believe that the understanding of Islam which encourages calling people goats and is responsible for social divisions is [actually] influenced by pre-revolution dictatorial culture. The right thing for the judiciary to do was to pay attention to these roots and [influences] instead of executing a number of young men and teenagers amid serious rumors regarding the ways in which they were forced to confess.
However, as I mentioned before, we have lost all hope in the judiciary. A system that imprisons an intellectual, freedom-loving and religious son of Martyr Beheshti, as well as others like him, sitting him under his father’s photo in the hallways of the courtroom, has moved far away from the ideals defined during the revolution.
Today, the prison cells are occupied with the most sincere and devoted sons of this nation: students, professors and others. [Security forces] are trying to prosecute them with espionage or charges related to financial or sexual misconduct – charges based on expired formulas – while the real criminals and thieves who steal public money are free. Instead of looking for the real spies, they accuse decent religious people. I should take this opportunity to express my regret that all of my advisors who are decent, honest and educated individuals have been arrested and that I am not with them. These days, there is not a [single] night that I don’t think of Imam [Khomeini], Martyr Behesti and others. I whisper to them that what was achieved is far from what they wanted. I did not name any of my advisors in order to pay my respects to all political prisoners. Iran will remember their names and their sacrifices.
Can you give some examples of despotic mentality that are evident in the behavior of officials?
One can see the influence of this mentality as well as the remains of the despotic regime [that was in power before the revolution] alongside the spirit of awareness and freedom everywhere. But perhaps the best example we can observe is the distortion of logical and legal relations between [different] branches in the system. It is very obvious now that Parliament does not have enough sway over the government in matters that fall under its jurisdiction. This is not an argument made solely by those who oppose the government. Moderate conservatives who are aware [of problems] also complain about these issues. Not responding to issues raised by the Supreme Audit Court, lack of transparency in oil sales and revenue spending, disregard for the fourth [development] program, destruction of the budget office to avoid audits and reviews, and so on – all are clear examples of a return to the pre-Pahlavi time. There is no need to look too far. A few days ago it was in the media that a minister objected to a question asked by reporters about teachers’ incomes by saying that it is no one’s business how much they earn or if that figure is low. You can hear similar comments from other officials as well as security forces.
Also, while Parliament has [openly] discussed the unprecedented atrocities committed in Kahrizak , one official says that the issue has been blown out of proportion unnecessarily. Another example given these days is the relationship between the Judiciary and its so-called forces. It is a question of whether the judges make the decisions or the security forces? To what extend can the Judiciary exercise its privileges when, in the constitution, a great emphasis has been placed on its independence? In my opinion, one of the obvious cases that demonstrates the persistence of a despotic mentality is the injustice done to the [roles of] the Judiciary and the Parliament. Can both divisions exercise all the power bestowed upon them in the constitution? The similarities between today’s elections and those held during [the time before the revolution] are another sign. Compare the voting process for Parliamentary elections during the early years of the revolution with that of today’s to see if we have moved forward or backward.
One of the perennial demands – reflected in the slogans of [various] political parties – is social justice and economic equality in particular. Sometimes, [in our society], freedom and justice have been interpreted as opposites. With this in mind, is it possible to recognize a specific trend in the green movement?
In the constitutional revolution, people were demanding justice, and from this justice, a desire for freedom was born. In the history of human thought, the desire for justice has always existed, to a point where some scholars and philosophers believe that justice is above all virtues. I do not believe we must choose between justice and freedom. Take a look at our society, you can see that the $850 poverty line and simultaneous existence of inflation and unemployment are limiting the pursuit for freedom.
It is exactly at this point of greed for dominance and repression of people that demands for freedom rise up to show themselves. It is because of declining family budgets that distributing potatoes and well-fare economy turns into means to attract votes and needs of people. An examination of the country’s current situation shows that the tight grip of demands of justice, especially on economic justice, on demands for political freedom is a necessary connection between the two.
Before revolution, it was a principle that the revolutionary forces and the academic class defended the lower class. It was their honor to be their friend. In my opinion, the point that all of us should have in mind, is that of supporting the hard-working class. Of course not for the purpose of using them as instruments [to pursue our goals] but with the intention that the movement’s destiny will be tied to the destiny of all the people and specially with the two classes which are productive in economy and science: the workers, teachers and the academicians. I regret that the intense political problems resulted in less attention to the lower class of the society , their problems and their rights. When people’s standard of living improves, the roots of the freedom grow deeper in the society and unity and growth flourishes among people.
Today, those who are responsible for the misery of our people, and the backwardness of the nation, and those who are responsible for inflation and unemployment and economic ruin of the country, those who are responsible for closing huge projects and setting us back compared to our neighbors, are misusing this situation by carrying out distorted, deceptive policies like injecting pain killers [into a body]. They are taking the country to the verge of ruin with the way they are handling the justice shares and pensions and the incorrect methods with which article 44 of the constitution [on privatization] is carried out. The future of the Fourth Development Plan and the yearly budget is of great concern.
Especially with the [government's] incompetency that has resulted in the probability of increased sanctions. In any case, the underprivileged classes of the society who care for Islamic values potentially have the same demands as the green movement. Those who are after [seek] a national consensus for change should become more integrated with these classes and also pursue their concerns and demands. Additionally, today we should all follow and be sensitive to economic news and analyses [in general], because the economy has such a determining and crucial role in the fate of our country. These days the quantity of social and economic stories we see in the news [about Iran] is far less than the politics, and people are not informed as much as they should on these issues.
A number of people see the solution to the country’s difficulties in moving beyond the Constitution. In your opinion, is this a real solution to our problems?
God willing all of us entered the arena in the cause of reform, not for the sake of revenge or obtaining power or to destroy things. Solutions which involve a transition beyond the Constitution are fraught with difficulties. The first of those is that the proponents of such a request do not have the capacity to attract the interest of the majority of our people. Without attracting the interest of the majority and, I have to say, without the creation of a consensus, we should not expect any fundamental or meaningful changes. For this reason some of the slogans which lean toward moving past the Constitution have been treated with suspicion by the devout and by traditionalist institutions and, unfortunately, it must be said that sometimes these kinds of extremist slogans harm the movement more than the extremism of the authoritarians [who repress the movement]. That you are opposed to superstitious leanings and petrified beliefs and practices is a good thing.
That, however, in the middle of battle a debate is opened up that is incompatible with the religion and faith of the people, is something of dubious value.The next reason why moving beyond the Constitution is problematic is that with such a solution we are simply stabbing in the dark. If we lose hold of this connecting cord, the product of the struggles and efforts of past generations, we will be turned into little fragments without any character. Then naturally we would see ordinary people turning away from all this disorder and movement in the dark. Those who are pursuing aims based on moving from the Constitution may well have control of the loudspeakers today, but in the heart of the society their aims are viewed with deep suspicion. In particular because alongside the heralds of moving beyond the Constitution are to be found, whether their presence is wanted or not, the repugnant figures of some monarchists who have seized the opportunity to display their hatred for the people and the revolution. Those who include monarchists in the programmes they announce have apparently forgotten that the people have an extremely good memory. In any case, everyone should expect to be accepted in accordance with his or her weight in society, and not more.
The slogans that are useful today are those which unequivocally help to make clear the aims of the movement, or which attract the sympathy of ordinary people to stand alongside the elites and the middle classes. They have to know that a decisive majority of the people consider 22nd Bahman [11th February, anniversary of the Victory of the Revolution] and the Islamic Revolution as belonging to the hundreds of thousands of martyrs [of the revolution and especially the 1980-8 war with Iraq] and that the history and character of our nation is, in city and village, bound to the yesterday of the revolution by the chain of these martyrs.
Seven months of television programming coming from abroad, which has unfortunately become important because of the restrictions placed on media inside the country and because of the excesses of state television, has had its effects. Yet these effects are too weak for the people to give up the interests of their nation and their religious and historic demands, just as they [the authorities] should not exploit such a weapon [claims made on foreign channels] as a pretext for accusing people and suppressing the realities of our society.In my opinion, efforts to push people to chant limited and pre-prepared slogans are an insult to the people. Slogans must well up from the heart of popular movements, in a spontaneous manner, not an autocratic one. In the same way that in 78/9 the slogan “Independence, Freedom, Islamic Republic” welled up naturally from people’s hearts.
Is it not true that reliance on the constitution would close options for the future?
I have said before that the constitution is not a something that cannot be changed. It has changed before in 1988, and it can change again. By considering what people think and demand and what their collective experience as a nation dictates we can take steps to improve the constitution. Nevertheless, we must be aware that a good constitution by itself is not the solution. We must move towards a [political] structure that imposes a high cost on those who attempt to disobey or ignore the laws.
I believe that the Islamic republic is meaningless without the constitution. In addition to care on safeguarding against violations to the rule of the constitution, we must also consider lack of attention or ignoring of the rules too as a violation to the constitution. It is exactly for this reason that the demand of ‘unconditional execution of the constitutional rights’ is one of the determining demands. Furthermore, for the same we must remind those who advocate the continual of the Islamic Republic that if significant parts of the constitution, especially those articles in the third section [on freedom and other right of people]are ignored they would start to show reflect consequences for the establishment in form of other causes. We must all be aware. Violating of rights of people numerated in the constitution and refraining from recognition of people as masters of their own destinies could lead to falsification of the [constitution,] this invaluable national legacy. For example, those who promote spying and surveillance to extents that make it normal [to do so] are destroying the establishment from its roots. Those who constrain the media, and assume an exclusive control over National TV help destroy the pillars of the Islamic Republic.
In the 17th statement I had alluded to springs [of clear water] that could calm the strong currents and clear the muddy and wavy river if they flow to the river. One of these clear paths is to officially announce that we want to return to the constitution.
For our last question, please give us your opinion about the rallies and demonstrations.
Rallies and nonviolent demonstrations are among the people’s rights. I don’t think that anyone – men, women, middle-aged people or seniors – holds a grudge against the basij and the security forces because they are seen as equals. Conflicts break out when these forces stand against a calm movement. You can produce a documentary out of the thousands of photos and video clips from the days of Ashura, as well as the days prior to it, that would demonstrate how these conflicts and tense environments are formed. My advice to the basij and security forces is to be calm and kind in their treatment. My advice to followers of the green movement is to reduce their identifying features, whether they are used to help them stand out a little or a lot. This movement has grown out of a people and it belongs to them. Everyone should be extremely mindful of beliefs, values, and traditions. But we should never forget our final goal – to create a developed, independent, free and united Iran. This goal can only be achieved with the collaboration of all men and women from all layers of society, of all opinions and [political] appetites. Let me stress this point: when we say Iran, we must take into account all Iranians inside and outside who promote our land with its [ancient] culture and religious beliefs. God willing, the green movement will stop at nothing in its moral and nonviolent methods to fight the revival of our nation’s rights. This movement has always benefited from its choice of green: the color of the prophet and his family as well as the symbol of an Islam of love and affinity. The green movement respects human dignity, freedom of speech and the people’s right to hold different opinions. It welcomes all movements that aim to promote our nation’s development. It represents the [civil and constitutional] rights of citizens, among which is social justice.
Do you have a representative or a spokesperson outside the country?
In the green movement, every citizen is a media outlet. But the green path does not have a representative or spokesperson outside the country. This is one of its beauties. Everyone can talk about their ideas and the movement expands within a collaborative environment. As one of the members of the movement, I, too, will express my comments and suggestions in this environment.
You are sometimes quoted on websites, facebook and other online sources. To what extent do you approve these articles?
My pieces [interviews, articles, statements, etc] are written by me and are issued via very few websites. I do not have a personal weblog or anything of that sort. The quotes that you refer to are an inevitable results of virtual environments and I am not associated with any of them.
از مطالبات همیشگی جامعه که در شعارهای تشکل های سیاسی بازتاب داشته است عدالت اجتماعی، بویژه عدالت اقتصادی بوده است. گاهی دیده شده است که آزادی و عدالت در مقابل هم قرار داده شده اند. میتوان گرایش خاصی را در جنبش سبز تشخیص داد….ا
مردم در مشروطیت عدالت می خواستند و از دل عدالت، خواست آزادی هم متولد شد تا آنجا که تاریخ اندیشه بشری نشان می دهد خواست عدالت همیشه مطرح بوده است حتی بعضی از حکما و اندیشمندان عدالت را جمع همه فضیلت ها و یا مادر همه فضیلت های دیگر دانسته اند. من گمان نمی کنم که ما مجبور باشیم میان عدالت و آزادی یکی از آنها را انتخاب کنیم. بطور عینی و ملموس شما توجه کنید که خط فقر هشتصد و پنجاه هزار تومانی و وجود توأمان تورم و بیکاری، دارند درخواست آزادی را محدود می کنند.
درست در همین نقطه است که طمع سیطره و مهار خواستهای آزادی خواهانه مردم بروز و ظهور پیدا می کند. در کوچکتر شدن سفره مردم است که توزیع سیب زمینی و اقتصاد صدقه ای برای جلب آرا و خواسته های مردم مورد توجه قرار می گیرد. بررسی وضعیت موجود کشور نشان می دهد که امروز گره خوردن خواست برای عدالت بویژه عدالت اقتصادی با خواست برای آزادی سیاسی یک ضرورت است.ا
در سالهای قبل از انقلاب، دفاع نیروهای انقلابی و جامعه دانشگاهی از اقشار ضعیف یک اصل بود و متصف بودن به همنشینی باکارگران و حقوق بگیران و اقشار مستضعف یک افتخار بحساب می آمد. به نظر بنده از نکاتی که همه ما باید به ان توجه کنیم حمایت از منافع اقشار زحمت کش است، البته نه برای آنکه از این اقشار به صورت ابزاری استفاده شود بلکه با این قصد که سرنوشت جنبش با سرنوشت همه آحاد ملت بویژه دو قشری که تولید اقتصادی و تولید علمی دارند یعنی کارگران و معلمان ودانشگاهیان گره بخورد. بنده به دلیل آنکه مشکلات حاد سیاسی باعث شده است مشکلات اقشار پایین دست جامعه و حقوق آنان کمتر مورد توجه قرار گیرد، ناراحت هستم. وقتی معیشت مردم سامان پیدا می کند، هم ریشه های آزادی در جامعه عمیق تر می شود و هم وحدت و رشد و شکوفایی مردم بیشتر می شود.ا
امروز کسانی که مسئول شور بختی مردم و عقب ماندگی ملی ما هستند و کسانی که مسئول تورم و بیکاری و ویرانی اقتصاد کشور هستند، مسئول تعطیلی پروژه های بزرگ و عقب ماندگی ما از رقیبان در منطقه هستند، با تزریق مسکّن ها و سیاست های بی سر و ته ولی عوام فریبانه سعی می کننداز این وضعیت استفاده کنند. کافی است ببینید باسهام عدالت و حقوق بازنشستگان و شیوه غلط اجرای اصل ۴۴ چه بلایی به سر مملکت آورده اند. سرنوشت برنامه چهارم و بودجه سال آینده مایه نگرانی جدی است.ا
مخصوصا با ندانم کاری هایی که منجر به افزایش خطر تحریم ها شده است. به هر حال باید گفت که اقشار مستضعف جامعه که دل در ارزش های اسلامی دارند بالقوه خواستار تحقق اهدافی هستند که جنبش سبز نیز بدنبال آن است. کسانی که خواستار اجماع ملی برای تغییراند باید بیشتر با اقشار تهی دست گره بخورند و از منافع آنها دفاع بکنند گذشته از آن، امروز به دلیل سرنوشت ساز بودن تصمیمات و سیاست های اقتصادی همه باید به اخبار و تحلیل های اقتصادی حساسیت نشان بدهند. این روزها حجم اخبار اقتصادی و اجتماعی درمقایسه با اخبار سیاسی بسیار اندک است و در این زمینه اطلاع رسانی کمی صورت می گیرد.ا
عده ای عبور از قانون اساسی را حلال مشکلات کشور می بینند. آیا به نظر شما این راه حل واقعی مسائل ماست؟
انشاالله همه ما برای اصلاح به میدان آمده ایم، نه برای انتقام گیری و یا کسب قدرت و یا ویران گری. راه حل های گذر از قانون اساسی دارای اشکالات فراوان و جدی است. اولین آنها عدم توانایی صاحبان چنین خواسته ای برای جلب نظر اکثریت ملت ماست. بدون جلب نظر این اکثریت و حتی باید بگویم، بدون ایجاد یک اجماع نباید منتظر یک تحول اساسی و معنا دار باشیم. برای همین بعضی از شعارهای معطوف به عبور از قانون اساسی موردسوء ظن مردم متدین ونهادهای سنتی است و متاسفانه باید گفت، گاهی شعارهای افراطی در این زمینه بیشتر از افراط کاری های اقتدارگرایان به جنبش آسیب می رسانند. اینکه شما مخالف خرافه گرایی و تحجر هستید یک خواست خوب و اساسی است.ا
ولی اینکه وسط معرکه بحث هایی به میان کشیده شود که با اعتقادات و دین و ایمان مردم ناسازگاری دارد، مشکوک است. دلیل بعدی برای ابتر بودن عبور از قانون اساسی آن است که با این راه حل، ما به پرتاب در تاریکی دعوت می شویم. اگر ما این ریسمان اتصال را که حاصل زحمات و تلاش های نسلهای گذشته ماست از دست بدهیم به قطعات ریز ریز بی خاصیت تبدیل خواهیم شد. طبیعی است که دنبال آن رویگردانی عامه مردم از این آشفتگی و حرکت در تاریکی را شاهد باشیم. کسانی که اهداف مبتنی برعبور از قانون اساسی را دنبال می کنند ممکن است امروز بلندگوهای بزرگی را در اختیار داشته باشند ولی در بطن جامعه اهداف آنها با سوءظن جدی روبرو است. مخصوصا که در کنار منادیان عبور از قانون اساسی خواسته و نخواسته آنها بعضی از چهره های منفور شاهی حضور دارند که به صورت فرصت طلبانه ای کینه خود را به مردم و انقلاب به نمایش می گذارند. کسانی که تئوریسین های شاهی را در برنامه های خود علم می کنند ظاهرا یادشان رفته است که مردم حافظه بسیار خوبی دارند. بهرحال هر کس به اندازه وزن اجتماعی خود میتواند انتظار مقبولیت را داشته باشد و نه بیشتر.ا
شعارهایی امروز مفید است که یا بصورت مشخص به تبیین اهداف جنبش کمک کند و یا همدلی عامه مردم را در کنار نخبگان و طبقات میانه جلب کند.همه باید بدانند که ۲۲ بهمن و انقلاب اسلامی را اکثریت قاطع مردم ما متعلق به صدها هزار شهید می دانند و تاریخ و منش ملت ما با زنجیره ای از این شهدا در شهر و روستا به دیروز انقلاب متصل اند.ا
هفت ماه برنامه کانال های کشورهای دیگر که متأسفانه به دلیل بستن فضای رسانه ای کشور و انحراف صدا و سیما اهمیت پیدا کرده اند، اثراتی داشته اند. ولی این اثرات ضعیف تر از آن هستند که مردم از منافع ملی خود و خواسته های دینی و تاریخی شان دست بردارن، همچنانکه نباید همچون حربه ای برای اتهام و سرکوب واقعیت های جامعه مورد بهره برداری قرار گیرند. به نظر من تلاش برای سوق دادن مردم بسوی شعارهای محدود و از پیش تعیین شده ،اهانت به مردم است و باید شعارها از بطن حرکت های مردمی و بصورت خود جوش و غیر آمرانه بجوشد. همانطور که در سال ۵۷ شعار استقلال، آزادی، جمهوری اسلامی به صورت طبیعی از دل مردم جوشید.ا
آیا صرف تکیه بر قانون اساسی راه را برای آینده نمی بندد؟
بنده جایی گفته ام که قانون اساسی وحی منزل نیست و همانطور که سال ۶۸ یکبار تغییر پیدا کرد می توان با توجه به نیازهای فکری مردم و مطالبات مردم و تجربیات ملی گام های مهمی در جهت کارآمدسازی بیشتر آن برداشت. منتهی باید بداینم که صرف داشتن یک قانون خوب مسئله را حل نمی کند. ما باید به طرف سازو کارهایی حرکت کنیم که امکان نقض و تخطی از قانون هزینه های گزافی برای نقض کنندگان آن در هر سطح و مرتبتی داشته باشد.ا
به نظر بنده جمهوری اسلامی منهای قانون اساسی بی معنا است، و ما علاوه بر مراقبت جهت عدم نقض قانون اساسی،اجرا نشدن و یا کمتر توجه کردن به بخشهایی از قانون اساسی را هم باید نوعی نقض قانون اساسی بحساب بیاوریم. برای همین، خواست اجرای بدون تنازل قانون اساسی یک خواست راهبردی است از طرف دیگر هم به همین دلیل باید به کسانی که علاقه مند به بقای جمهوری اسلامی هستند بگوییم اگر بخشهای قابل ملاحظه ای از قانون اساسی بویژه فصل سوم آن مورد بی اعتنایی قرار گیرد بطور قهری بدیل های دیگری برای نظام ظهور خواهد کرد. همه باید بدانیم، عدم رعایت حقوق اساسی مردم که در قانون اساسی آمده است و هم چنین به رسمیت نشناختن حاکمیت مردم بر سرنوشت خود به ابطال این میثاق ارزشمند ملی خواهد انجامید. به طور مثال آن کسانی که جاسوسی و تجسس را در جامعه تبدیل به یک رویه عادی کرده اند، خواسته و ناخواسته تیشه به ریشه نظام می زنند. آن کسانی که رسانه ها را محدود کرده اند و صدا و سیما را در انحصار خواسته های خود قرار داده اند، به سستی پایه های جمهوری اسلامی کمک می کنند.ا
در بیانیه شماره ۱۷ اشاره به نهرهایی داشتم که اگر وارد رودخانه گل آلود و طغیانی بشوند می توانند جریان آنرا بتدریج آرام و روشن گردانند. یکی از آن نهرهای روشن می تواند این باشد که رسما اعلام شود که قرار است همه به قانون اساسی برگردیم.ا
به عنوان سوال آخر در مورد راهپیمایی ها و تجمعات نظرتان را بیان بفرمایید
راهپیمایی و تجمعات مسالمت آمیز، حق مردم است، زنان و مردان و جوانان و میانسالان و سالخوردگان به نظر من مردم در اصل هیچ کینه ای نسبت به نیروهای انتظامی و بسیج ندارند چرا که آنها را نیز از خود می دانند. درگیری موقعی پیش می آید که این نیروها در مقابل حرکت آرام مردم قرار می گیرند از هزاران عکس و فیلم های کوتاه مردمی که درعاشورا و یا روزها ی دیگر گرفته شده می توان فیلم مستندی ساخت تا معلوم شود که درگیری ها و فضای تند دنبال آن چگونه ایجاد شده است. به هر حال انچه توصیه بنده به نیروهای انتظامی و بسیج است، مهربانی و ملاطفت با مردم است و توصیه من به طرفداران جنبش سبز آن است که تمایز خود را با بقیه مردم، چه کم و چه زیاد ،کم کنند. این نهضت از میان مردم برآمده و متعلق به مردم است. همه به شدت باید مراقب اعتقادات، مقدسات و عرف و هنجارهای جامعه باشند. اما هدف نهایی خودمان را درهیچ مرحله ای نباید از یاد ببریم و آن ساختن ایرانی پیشرفته و مستقل و آزاد و متحد است. این هدف تنها با همکاری همه زنان و مردان و همه اقشار ملت و همه اندیشه ها و سلیقه ها امکان پذیر است. جا دارد بگویم، وقتی می گوییم ایران باید همه ایرانیان داخل و خارج علاقمند به اعتلای این سرزمین و فرهنگ دیرینه و باورهای دینی، آسمانی و رحمانی آن را در نظر بیاوریم و انشاالله حرکت سبز در هیچ مرحله ای دست از روش های مسالمت آمیز و اخلاقی خود در مبارزه برای احقاق حق ملت دست برنخواهد داشت. این حرکت از انتخاب رنگ سبز رنگ اهل بیت پیامبر به عنوان اسلام رحمانی و دوستی و محبت و وحدت همیشه استفاده کرده است. جنبش سبز به کرامت ذاتی انسانی و حق تنوع عقاید و اندیشه و آزادی بیان احترام می گذارد و از همه جنبش هایی که اهداف آنها بهروزی و رشد ملت و تضمین حقوق شهروندی و آزادی های اساسی ملت ما و نیز عدالت اجتماعی است استقبال می کند و آنها را از خود جدا نمی داند.ا
آیا شما نماینده و سخن گویی در خارج دارید؟
در جنبش سبز هر شهروند یک رسانه است و راه سبز هیچ نماینده و سخن گویی در خارج ندارد. یکی از زیبایی های فضای سبز آن است که همه حرفهای خود را می زنند و این حرکت در یک فضای تعامل گسترش می یابد. بنده هم به عنوان یک همراه نظرات و پیشنهادات خودم را در این فضا مطرح می کنم.ا
گاهی در سایتها و فیس بوک و نظایر آن از شما نقل قولهایی می شود. تا چه اندازه این مطالب مورد تأیید شماست؟
مطالب بنده با امضاء و در سایتهای محدودی منعکس می شود و من وبلاگ شخصی و امثال آن ندارم. نقل قولهایی که اشاره کردید از جمله عوارض اجتناب ناپذیر فضای مجازی است و ارتباطی با من ندارد.ا
Mir Hossein Mousavi ’s Interview with Kaleme website
Kaleme reports that in this interview which took place close to February 11th [22 of Bahman], the 31st anniversary of the Islamic revolution, Mousavi stated that the main reason for the collapse of the dictatorial and unpopular regime of the Shah was its illegitimacy [in the eyes of citizens]. He emphasized that the resistance of Iranians is a cherished legacy of the Islamic revolution. As is their intolerance for dishonesty, fraud and corruption. The complete interview is provided below.
We are approaching the 31st anniversary of the Islamic revolution. How can the recollection and commemoration of those days benefit us today?
First and foremost, I want to congratulate all of our people on the 31st anniversary of our [victory in the] revolution, particularly the families of our martyrs, our [war] veterans and prisoners of war [with Iraq]. Analyzing the Islamic revolution has not come to an end yet. There have been thousands of books and articles written about it and many still to come. It is interesting that the recent elections and the events following it have brought forth new critiques of the revolution.
Some of these analyses mainly focus on the similarities between them, some explore the similarities as well as the differences and others seek the roots of the green movement in the Islamic revolution. In any case, these critiques are very beneficial, particularly for the younger generation who are the main moving force of the green movement. There were many factors that joined in bringing together our people, particularly the marginalized [people] , under the brilliant leadership of Imam Khomeini and leaded to the [victory of the] revolution. There is much to say about this, but what I think is particularly relevant to our current situation and would like to mention now, at the beginning of this interview, is that in the 1979 revolution, all of our people had united and were present in shaping the revolution. This unity was so strong that it even took over the military bases. The [famous] historic picture of the officers of the air force saluting Imam Khomeini on the 8th of February is important in documenting this. In the days leading to the revolution we didn’t have two groups, a majority and a minority, in the streets; but because the unpopular and dictatorial regime of the Shah had completely lost the roots of its legitimacy , it had no base left, even among the military forces. In those days even specific political groups with very distinct positions lost their differences and, some even reluctantly, joined the masses of millions in asking for “independence, liberty [freedom], Islamic Republic”.
Can we say that the fall of the Pahlavi regime was inevitable?
The regime had completely lost its legitimacy. Of course, the [regime’s forces] killing civilians on the streets had a lot to do with this. The murders of 17 Shahrivard [September 8th] were a defining moment. If we look back, we see that if the Pahlavi regime had not betrayed the achievements of the Constitutional Revolution [which saw the establishment of parliament], the monarchy would have survived and continued to rule with the role that the constitution had carved out for it, and with the backing of the people’s vote. From the beginning, many warnings were given to the Pahlavis regarding [their disregard for the constitution] and someone like the late Modarres sacrificed his life for this goal. But all these warnings and reminders were useless and within a few years of the constitutional revolution, despotic governance had taken over once more, although this time with a modern façade. The relatively long rule of the Pahlavis shows that during the Constitutional Revolution, the roots of despotism were not completely destroyed. And these roots continued to live on, within cultural, social and political structures. I remember that in those years, one picture which the Shah constantly used to promote himself was a photo of a farmer kissing the Shah’s feet. In his view, this demonstrated the deep love that the people had for him. But of course, wise men saw much more in that photo.
Would you say that the elements which – according to you – reinforce despotic regimes were eliminated with the Islamic Revolution?
In the first years of the revolution, people were convinced that it had completely destroyed all of those structures through which despotism and dictatorship could be reinforced. And I was one of the people who believed this. But today, I no longer do. Today we can identify those very structures which have lead to despotism [in the past]. We can also identify the resistance people have shown against a return to dictatorship. This is the invaluable inheritance of the Islamic Revolution, clearly demonstrated today with the people’s intolerance for deception, lies and corruption. Similarly, the tight control of newspapers and media, the overflowing prisons, and the brutal killing of innocent people who are peacefully requesting their rights all reveal the lingering roots of despotism. The people are after justice and freedom. Moreover, they are aware that the arrests and executions are politically motivated and unconstitutional. They despise the monarchy but are also aware that people may be condemned to death based on frivolous accusations and without even being subject to a legal trial. [The people know that these executions are only carried out] so that a brutal, ruthless leader of Friday prayers – one who has constantly defended corruption, violence and deception – can applaud them. It matters not to him that there are abundant [instances of] forced confessions, and he doesn’t care that [those executed] have had nothing to do with the election. For him, what matters is the power of the executions to generate fear. He is ignorant of the power of innocent blood. He doesn’t know that it was the blood of martyrs that caused the Pahlavi regime to collapse. From the revolution onwards, people have believed in freedom, independence and the Islamic Republic. The courageous resistance and the strength of our people and our soldiers during the eight year war was a sign of the fundamental changes that had taken place in our society. We should remember that parts of our country were lost in the wars, crises and political games created during the time of the shahs [kings].The courageous resistance of our people during the eight-year war ended this vicious cycle. And now, in the courageous, defiant and green rows of people who demand their rights, we see a continuum of the very resistance we saw during the war and the 1979 revolution. However, we can conclude that we were too optimistic at the beginning of the [Islamic] revolution. We can see today that the government, its newspapers and its national broadcasting network easily lie. Our people can see that in reality, the security and military forces control cases in the judiciary; that the judiciary itself has become an instrument of the security forces.
I believe that the martyrdom of men like Beheshti, Motahari and others during the Islamic Revolution was [a result of] the extended despotic roots of the previous regime that had not been destroyed completely. Therefore, I do not believe that the Islamic Revolution has achieved its goals. The Fajr festival held each year is, in reality, [a medium for people] to be vigilant and reinforce [their] strength in order to remove the remaining roots of despotism. Today, people are actively present on the scene to pursue justice, freedom and [the right] to rule their own destinies. We should remember that our nation has produced hundreds of thousands of martyrs in the pursuit of these goals.
The Islamic Revolution is the result of the efforts and sacrifices of our great nation. [Even] a slight ignorance and retreat will lead us to a darker dictatorship than [the one we had] before – because dictatorship in the name of religion is the worst kind.On the contrary, [the pursuit of ] knowledge as well as the primary goals of the Islamic Revolution – [which include] serious demands for freedom and justice – will carry us from a dark past to a bright future. This will destroy the remaining residues of dictatorship and pave the way for life in a free [society] where diversity, pluralism, freedom of speech and human dignity are all respected. I believe that the understanding of Islam which encourages calling people goats and is responsible for social divisions is [actually] influenced by pre-revolution dictatorial culture. The right thing for the judiciary to do was to pay attention to these roots and [influences] instead of executing a number of young men and teenagers amid serious rumors regarding the ways in which they were forced to confess.
However, as I mentioned before, we have lost all hope in the judiciary. A system that imprisons an intellectual, freedom-loving and religious son of Martyr Beheshti, as well as others like him, sitting him under his father’s photo in the hallways of the courtroom, has moved far away from the ideals defined during the revolution.
Today, the prison cells are occupied with the most sincere and devoted sons of this nation: students, professors and others. [Security forces] are trying to prosecute them with espionage or charges related to financial or sexual misconduct – charges based on expired formulas – while the real criminals and thieves who steal public money are free. Instead of looking for the real spies, they accuse decent religious people. I should take this opportunity to express my regret that all of my advisors who are decent, honest and educated individuals have been arrested and that I am not with them. These days, there is not a [single] night that I don’t think of Imam [Khomeini], Martyr Behesti and others. I whisper to them that what was achieved is far from what they wanted. I did not name any of my advisors in order to pay my respects to all political prisoners. Iran will remember their names and their sacrifices.
Can you give some examples of despotic mentality that are evident in the behavior of officials?
One can see the influence of this mentality as well as the remains of the despotic regime [that was in power before the revolution] alongside the spirit of awareness and freedom everywhere. But perhaps the best example we can observe is the distortion of logical and legal relations between [different] branches in the system. It is very obvious now that Parliament does not have enough sway over the government in matters that fall under its jurisdiction. This is not an argument made solely by those who oppose the government. Moderate conservatives who are aware [of problems] also complain about these issues. Not responding to issues raised by the Supreme Audit Court, lack of transparency in oil sales and revenue spending, disregard for the fourth [development] program, destruction of the budget office to avoid audits and reviews, and so on – all are clear examples of a return to the pre-Pahlavi time. There is no need to look too far. A few days ago it was in the media that a minister objected to a question asked by reporters about teachers’ incomes by saying that it is no one’s business how much they earn or if that figure is low. You can hear similar comments from other officials as well as security forces.
Also, while Parliament has [openly] discussed the unprecedented atrocities committed in Kahrizak , one official says that the issue has been blown out of proportion unnecessarily. Another example given these days is the relationship between the Judiciary and its so-called forces. It is a question of whether the judges make the decisions or the security forces? To what extend can the Judiciary exercise its privileges when, in the constitution, a great emphasis has been placed on its independence? In my opinion, one of the obvious cases that demonstrates the persistence of a despotic mentality is the injustice done to the [roles of] the Judiciary and the Parliament. Can both divisions exercise all the power bestowed upon them in the constitution? The similarities between today’s elections and those held during [the time before the revolution] are another sign. Compare the voting process for Parliamentary elections during the early years of the revolution with that of today’s to see if we have moved forward or backward.
One of the perennial demands – reflected in the slogans of [various] political parties – is social justice and economic equality in particular. Sometimes, [in our society], freedom and justice have been interpreted as opposites. With this in mind, is it possible to recognize a specific trend in the green movement?
In the constitutional revolution, people were demanding justice, and from this justice, a desire for freedom was born. In the history of human thought, the desire for justice has always existed, to a point where some scholars and philosophers believe that justice is above all virtues. I do not believe we must choose between justice and freedom. Take a look at our society, you can see that the $850 poverty line and simultaneous existence of inflation and unemployment are limiting the pursuit for freedom.
It is exactly at this point of greed for dominance and repression of people that demands for freedom rise up to show themselves. It is because of declining family budgets that distributing potatoes and well-fare economy turns into means to attract votes and needs of people. An examination of the country’s current situation shows that the tight grip of demands of justice, especially on economic justice, on demands for political freedom is a necessary connection between the two.
Before revolution, it was a principle that the revolutionary forces and the academic class defended the lower class. It was their honor to be their friend. In my opinion, the point that all of us should have in mind, is that of supporting the hard-working class. Of course not for the purpose of using them as instruments [to pursue our goals] but with the intention that the movement’s destiny will be tied to the destiny of all the people and specially with the two classes which are productive in economy and science: the workers, teachers and the academicians. I regret that the intense political problems resulted in less attention to the lower class of the society , their problems and their rights. When people’s standard of living improves, the roots of the freedom grow deeper in the society and unity and growth flourishes among people.
Today, those who are responsible for the misery of our people, and the backwardness of the nation, and those who are responsible for inflation and unemployment and economic ruin of the country, those who are responsible for closing huge projects and setting us back compared to our neighbors, are misusing this situation by carrying out distorted, deceptive policies like injecting pain killers [into a body]. They are taking the country to the verge of ruin with the way they are handling the justice shares and pensions and the incorrect methods with which article 44 of the constitution [on privatization] is carried out. The future of the Fourth Development Plan and the yearly budget is of great concern.
Especially with the [government's] incompetency that has resulted in the probability of increased sanctions. In any case, the underprivileged classes of the society who care for Islamic values potentially have the same demands as the green movement. Those who are after [seek] a national consensus for change should become more integrated with these classes and also pursue their concerns and demands. Additionally, today we should all follow and be sensitive to economic news and analyses [in general], because the economy has such a determining and crucial role in the fate of our country. These days the quantity of social and economic stories we see in the news [about Iran] is far less than the politics, and people are not informed as much as they should on these issues.
A number of people see the solution to the country’s difficulties in moving beyond the Constitution. In your opinion, is this a real solution to our problems?
God willing all of us entered the arena in the cause of reform, not for the sake of revenge or obtaining power or to destroy things. Solutions which involve a transition beyond the Constitution are fraught with difficulties. The first of those is that the proponents of such a request do not have the capacity to attract the interest of the majority of our people. Without attracting the interest of the majority and, I have to say, without the creation of a consensus, we should not expect any fundamental or meaningful changes. For this reason some of the slogans which lean toward moving past the Constitution have been treated with suspicion by the devout and by traditionalist institutions and, unfortunately, it must be said that sometimes these kinds of extremist slogans harm the movement more than the extremism of the authoritarians [who repress the movement]. That you are opposed to superstitious leanings and petrified beliefs and practices is a good thing.
That, however, in the middle of battle a debate is opened up that is incompatible with the religion and faith of the people, is something of dubious value.The next reason why moving beyond the Constitution is problematic is that with such a solution we are simply stabbing in the dark. If we lose hold of this connecting cord, the product of the struggles and efforts of past generations, we will be turned into little fragments without any character. Then naturally we would see ordinary people turning away from all this disorder and movement in the dark. Those who are pursuing aims based on moving from the Constitution may well have control of the loudspeakers today, but in the heart of the society their aims are viewed with deep suspicion. In particular because alongside the heralds of moving beyond the Constitution are to be found, whether their presence is wanted or not, the repugnant figures of some monarchists who have seized the opportunity to display their hatred for the people and the revolution. Those who include monarchists in the programmes they announce have apparently forgotten that the people have an extremely good memory. In any case, everyone should expect to be accepted in accordance with his or her weight in society, and not more.
The slogans that are useful today are those which unequivocally help to make clear the aims of the movement, or which attract the sympathy of ordinary people to stand alongside the elites and the middle classes. They have to know that a decisive majority of the people consider 22nd Bahman [11th February, anniversary of the Victory of the Revolution] and the Islamic Revolution as belonging to the hundreds of thousands of martyrs [of the revolution and especially the 1980-8 war with Iraq] and that the history and character of our nation is, in city and village, bound to the yesterday of the revolution by the chain of these martyrs.
Seven months of television programming coming from abroad, which has unfortunately become important because of the restrictions placed on media inside the country and because of the excesses of state television, has had its effects. Yet these effects are too weak for the people to give up the interests of their nation and their religious and historic demands, just as they [the authorities] should not exploit such a weapon [claims made on foreign channels] as a pretext for accusing people and suppressing the realities of our society.In my opinion, efforts to push people to chant limited and pre-prepared slogans are an insult to the people. Slogans must well up from the heart of popular movements, in a spontaneous manner, not an autocratic one. In the same way that in 78/9 the slogan “Independence, Freedom, Islamic Republic” welled up naturally from people’s hearts.
Is it not true that reliance on the constitution would close options for the future?
I have said before that the constitution is not a something that cannot be changed. It has changed before in 1988, and it can change again. By considering what people think and demand and what their collective experience as a nation dictates we can take steps to improve the constitution. Nevertheless, we must be aware that a good constitution by itself is not the solution. We must move towards a [political] structure that imposes a high cost on those who attempt to disobey or ignore the laws.
I believe that the Islamic republic is meaningless without the constitution. In addition to care on safeguarding against violations to the rule of the constitution, we must also consider lack of attention or ignoring of the rules too as a violation to the constitution. It is exactly for this reason that the demand of ‘unconditional execution of the constitutional rights’ is one of the determining demands. Furthermore, for the same we must remind those who advocate the continual of the Islamic Republic that if significant parts of the constitution, especially those articles in the third section [on freedom and other right of people]are ignored they would start to show reflect consequences for the establishment in form of other causes. We must all be aware. Violating of rights of people numerated in the constitution and refraining from recognition of people as masters of their own destinies could lead to falsification of the [constitution,] this invaluable national legacy. For example, those who promote spying and surveillance to extents that make it normal [to do so] are destroying the establishment from its roots. Those who constrain the media, and assume an exclusive control over National TV help destroy the pillars of the Islamic Republic.
In the 17th statement I had alluded to springs [of clear water] that could calm the strong currents and clear the muddy and wavy river if they flow to the river. One of these clear paths is to officially announce that we want to return to the constitution.
For our last question, please give us your opinion about the rallies and demonstrations.
Rallies and nonviolent demonstrations are among the people’s rights. I don’t think that anyone – men, women, middle-aged people or seniors – holds a grudge against the basij and the security forces because they are seen as equals. Conflicts break out when these forces stand against a calm movement. You can produce a documentary out of the thousands of photos and video clips from the days of Ashura, as well as the days prior to it, that would demonstrate how these conflicts and tense environments are formed. My advice to the basij and security forces is to be calm and kind in their treatment. My advice to followers of the green movement is to reduce their identifying features, whether they are used to help them stand out a little or a lot. This movement has grown out of a people and it belongs to them. Everyone should be extremely mindful of beliefs, values, and traditions. But we should never forget our final goal – to create a developed, independent, free and united Iran. This goal can only be achieved with the collaboration of all men and women from all layers of society, of all opinions and [political] appetites. Let me stress this point: when we say Iran, we must take into account all Iranians inside and outside who promote our land with its [ancient] culture and religious beliefs. God willing, the green movement will stop at nothing in its moral and nonviolent methods to fight the revival of our nation’s rights. This movement has always benefited from its choice of green: the color of the prophet and his family as well as the symbol of an Islam of love and affinity. The green movement respects human dignity, freedom of speech and the people’s right to hold different opinions. It welcomes all movements that aim to promote our nation’s development. It represents the [civil and constitutional] rights of citizens, among which is social justice.
Do you have a representative or a spokesperson outside the country?
In the green movement, every citizen is a media outlet. But the green path does not have a representative or spokesperson outside the country. This is one of its beauties. Everyone can talk about their ideas and the movement expands within a collaborative environment. As one of the members of the movement, I, too, will express my comments and suggestions in this environment.
You are sometimes quoted on websites, facebook and other online sources. To what extent do you approve these articles?
My pieces [interviews, articles, statements, etc] are written by me and are issued via very few websites. I do not have a personal weblog or anything of that sort. The quotes that you refer to are an inevitable results of virtual environments and I am not associated with any of them.